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325 Comments (33 pages)
Latest comments listed first.Unfortunately, many Christians use only parts of scripture in an effort to validate our own points. I read a post from May 20th from a family in Madison. Whoever posted it asked "Where does the Bible justify" (the modern social activity)dancing?
The following passage (that they posted) would seem to condone it:
Ecclesiastes 3:4 -- A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance...
This passage has nothing to with strictly worshipping--it just says "a time to dance"
"I Samuel 29:5" Is another passage they quoted) also has nothing to do with worshipping God...rather, it shows how people danced to purely celebrate the achievements of a man (the beloved of God)--and no one was smitten to death for celebrating David:
I Samuel 29:5--"Is not this David, of whom they sang one to another in dances, saying,
"Saul slew his thousands, and David his ten thousands?"
There's one more scripture that the family from Madison posted that, once again, mentions dancing and making merry that has nothing to do with strictly worshipping God:
Jeremiah 31:4 -- Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry. (21st Century King James version)
The New Living Translation words it this way:
I will rebuild you, my virgin Israel. You will again be happy
and dance merrily with your tambourines.
and the Message translation (I've included the passages 2-6):
"They found grace out in the desert,
these people who survived the killing. Israel, out looking for a place to rest,
met God out looking for them!" God told them, "I've never quit loving you and never will.
Expect love, love, and more love! And so now I'll start over with you and build you up again,
dear virgin Israel. You'll resume your singing,
grabbing tambourines and joining the dance. You'll go back to your old work of planting vineyards
on the Samaritan hillsides, And sit back and enjoy the fruit
oh, how you'll enjoy those harvests!..."
These passages from the Bible, even in different translations (after all, every version is a translation unless it is read in the original language in which the book or letter was written)all mention the goodness of dancing that doesn't have to be in the context of a worship service for God. Jesus warned His followers to not be legalistic like the Pharisees and Sadducees of His day. the following is a good example:
Matthew 22:34-40: (21st Cent KJV)
34 But when the Pharisees had heard that He had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
35 Then one of them, who was a lawyer, asked Him a question, tempting Him and saying,
36"Master, which is the great commandment in the law?"
37 Jesus said unto him, "`Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.'
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it: `Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.'
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
Those things, according to Jesus, are the most important things to obey. Teaching our children to respect their bodies is a much better witness for God than is making up and attributing laws to God that don't exist.
That's all I wanted to say! good night and God Bless!
The "strategic editing" comes from the fact that it should not be necessary to restate the whole of Scripture. Where in Scripture do you get the idea that God was angry with Moses for "trying to pass judgement on his own people"? If you got this from the movie, then please be advised that as good as the movie may be (its special effects just can't measure up to the real thing AND the producers had to condense the events of many months into a couple of hours), IT IS NOT totally accurate to the Scripture. The fact is that in Exodus 32:9-10 the LORD God Jehovah was ready to destroy the whole bunch of them and raise up a new group through Moses. But in verses 11-13 Moses pleads for them and verse 14 shows that the LORD changed His mind. However, Moses did not get to go into the Promised Land because of his anger at another time, but that is a different story that you will find if you read the whole story in the Bible.
We do agree with your statement that twisting the meaning and the message of the Bible" . . . "is not okay in any form. If anything...using the Bible in this way is really doing Satan's work." However, we do take issue with your statement that _we_ are "twisting the meaning and the message of the Bible in order to excuse [our] acts of hatred and intolerance....and eventually use those twistings in order to harm others." We do believe the Bible, the whole Bible, and only the Holy Bible ("nothing more, nothing less, and nothing else") to be the written Word of the Living God, Creator of Heaven and Earth, and that it is to be believed as simply and literally (at face value) as possible and that it is to be applied as "the final (and ultimate) rule of faith and practice." We have attended Bible-believing, Bible-preaching, Bible-teaching churches for over 40 years and the message has not changed, although there are far fewer true believers and far more detractors than there has been in the past. (For anyone who may be interested, Biblical hermeneutics is the study of interpretation and there are a number of websites that have pages titled "Rules of Interpretation." It is not hard to understand, but you really do need to have an open mind and a teachable spirit.)
Anthony, contrary to your accusations and opinions we are NOT trying to inflict harm on others or act superior (but do feel that we have something to share as well as something for which we can be "humbly proud of" for God's working in our lives). Yes, the Bible does have a message of hope, faith, love, and respect. But, it also has a message of ABSOLUTE HOLINESS and ABSOLUTE TRUTH. To quote from another poster, by the name of Naomi (May 14th at 3:01pm, on the webpage from the original article): "One day everyone will stand before Him and give account and they must do so according to His standards and not their own. . . . Christ loves us no matter what, but how can one call himself a Christian and live for the sin Christ died for?? . . . one day Tyler will answer to the Lord for the choices he made, as will each of us, myself included. I want to answer having made my choices based on the standards given to me by the One who will judge me! In the end my righteousness is not enough, but because Christ's blood has been imputed on my behalf I will stand complete in the righteousness of Christ. . ."
We are very sorry to hear that you are "no longer as devout a Christian as [you] used to be." However, many would tell you that "IT" is not really about religion. It is not about "me" OR "you" OR "them." It is all about your relationship with Jesus Christ, and we will be praying that you will accept Him as your Saviour and Lord. We suggest that you start by reading these passages
Matthew 6:33 and 7:7-8
Luke 19:10
John 1 and 3 (chapters)
Romans 3:23
Romans 6:23
Romans 5:8
Romans 10:9-10, 13
The Gospel of John (all 21 chapters)
I don't have the time, space or personal skill to deal with the issue of music. Although I do know enough to know that the harmony of a song is to be subservient to the melody and that the rhythm is to be subservient to both the harmony and the melody. Also, it is very easy to see that this principle is very often not practiced in "modern music" (stylistically; note that I am not saying new compositions). Besides which your own intolerance has already pre-judged anything that I would say. I recommend that anyone who is truly interested in the subject start by reading the six articles on Christian Music posted on the website of the Bible Broadcasting Network at
<http://www.bbnradio.org/wcm4/english/tabid/728/Default.aspx> Beyond that there are numerous books available on the subject and can be found on a variety of websites. Just do some searching for "conservative Christian music" and ask for books on music philosophy. I wish that I could recommend some sites but am not sure that would be considered proper.
Old news.
Move on.
Here's the catch...
A Family in Madison neglected to include the parts where Moses got mad and threw the Commandments at the Golden Calf the Isrealites were worshipping. Sure, God was mad and told the Isrealites to wander the desert...but He was more upset with Moses for trying to pass judgement on his own people. I guess A Family from Madison didn't want to mention that part.
This is the reason why religion looks bad in the public eye right now. People like A Family in Madison are twisting the meaning and the message of the Bible in order to excuse their acts of hatred and intolerance...and eventually use those twistings in order to harm others. This is not okay in any form. If anything...using the Bible in this way is really doing Satan's work.
Yes, A Family in Madison...I am calling you sinners. You and Heritage Christian for twisting the meaning and message of the Bible in order to spread hatred and intolerance and for using the Word of God in order to inflict harm on others.
We really don't need this type of behavior in religious circles. It's bad enough the church has proven themselves to be hypocrites with their stand on homosexuality. Sure...my pastor would preach about "love and respect towards your fellow man", but apparently that stand changes to one of hate when they find out their fellow man is gay. I was actually under the impression the church didn't have a problem with homosexuality seeing as how we're still reeling from all those priests who did naughty things to their altar boys some years back. (YES, I WENT THERE!)
Bottom line, A Family in Madison...the Bible does not exist for you to act superior over others or inflict harm on others. It exists to provide a message of hope, faith, love, and respect. But people like you have tainted that message in order to fuel intolerance and hatred. You are doing Satan's work by doing so, and you will surely go to Hell for it.
It's sad, really. It's because of actions like this that I am no longer as devout a Christian as I used to be. While I still believe in God...I no longer believe in religion, because religion as a whole has disappointed me because of actions like this.
Oh and for many many many many many many years there have been many before me that think that dancing is a joy and celebration and have deemed you religious zealots to be just as detrimental to America as those Islamic Extremists! The same generation that is questioning dancing is the same generation that thought it was ok beat and rape your own wives and children!
1) For many, many years AND by many, many people (far more spiritual and knowledgeable than me) have considered dancing to be questionable in nature.
2) It has often led to regrettable actions and associations because of its compromising nature (the worldliness of the music, the attire, other activities going on, etc).
3) To put an unmarried couple so physically near each other so as to make it impossible to NOT touch each other's private parts and with music that makes them want to move in unison and say this is a safe environment and NOT sexual sounds like ignorance, at best.
Thus, there is absolutely NO way that it can be condoned through a proper interpretation and application of the Holy Bible.
Many who deny or discredit the Bible do so because they want to deny the existence of a holy Creator - God, to whom we are ALL ultimately accountable. If one wishes to "take the text out of context" you can prove anything you want. Yes, II Samuel 6:14 says that King David danced before the LORD ((How could this EVER be considered an appropriate justification for any modern social activity, especially one that has often been considered to be questionable in nature and has often led to regrettable actions??? Far more space is used to describe the idolatrous actions in Exodus 32, but no one uses that for a justification for dancing!)) girded with a linen ephod, and verse 20 indicates that his first wife, Michal, considered him to be improperly clothed (because he did not have on all of his kingly refinery). But most people skip over the fact that "she despised him in her heart" (verse 16) and that the LORD closed her womb so that she never had any children (verse 18) which was considered a curse. II Samuel 11 - 12 tell about David's adultery with Bathsheba and the murder of her husband, Uriah. Further chapters continue the story and the consequences that King David suffered. We learn lessons from the actions of others, but the actions of others should not be the basis of our theology. King David was also a polygamist, but I have yet to hear of anyone who used him as their reason for their marital indiscretions. Just because Judas Iscariot hung himself after he betrayed the LORD Jesus Christ, does not mean that anyone should "Go, and do thou likewise." (which comes from the end of the parable about the Good Samaritan in Luke 10:25-37).
I am NOT characterizing everyone in Ohio as atheists and liberals, but I do know that there are many up there -- just as there are many here and they have all had a detrimental effect on our society in general. Actually, I would expect the ACLU and their friends to react the same way here in the "Bible Belt." They have already made our society so anti-Christian that in many areas it is virtually impossible to have a 2 minute prayer during graduation or before a football game, so why would they allow something that would come anywhere near a full worship service, sponsored by the school???
Yes, all sin is equal in God's eyes, because it comes from a heart of rebellion. However, in God's eyes AND in man's eyes, different actions do yield different consequences. No, going to church does not make one right with God, but it does make it much easier.
We have learned that most people who attempt to justify "questionable" actions are really trying to cover up their own guilty conscience instead of admitting that they were wrong & attempting to make the situation as right as possible. One who lives ABOVE reproach has nothing to be ashamed of, but they do have to watch out for those who would tear them DOWN.
We looked up these verses about dancing in our Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. Which verse would you use to justify the modern social activity called dancing? I am quite sure that the people at the FHS prom were NOT interested in worshipping the holy God of Heaven, Creator of Heaven and Earth. And, if they were I am sure that the ACLU and their friends would have shut it down in a minute -- if the atheists and liberals there in Ohio would have ever allowed to start in the first place. I can find nothing anywhere in the Bible to justify this modern social activity.
Exodus 15:20 -- And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel
in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.
Exodus 32:19 -- And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.
Judges 11:34 -- And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold,
his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances:
and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter.
Judges 21:21 -- And see, and, behold, if the daughters of Shiloh come out to dance in dances,
then come ye out of the vineyards, and catch you every man his wife of the daughters of Shiloh,
and go to the land of Benjamin.
Judges 21:23 -- And the children of Benjamin did so, and took them wives, according to their number, of them that danced, whom they caught: and they went and returned unto their inheritance, and repaired the cities, and dwelt in them.
I Samuel 18:6 And it came to pass as they came, when David was returned from
the slaughter of the Philistine, that the women came out of all cities of Israel,
singing and dancing, to meet king Saul, with tabrets, with joy, and with instruments of musick.
I Samuel 21:11 -- And the servants of Achish said unto him, "Is not this David the king of the land?" did they not sing one to another of him in dances, saying,
"Saul hath slain his thousands, and David his ten thousands?"
I Samuel 29:5 -- Is not this David, of whom they sang one to another in dances, saying,
"Saul slew his thousands, and David his ten thousands?"
I Samuel 30:16 -- 30:16 And when he had brought him down, behold, they were spread abroad upon all the earth, eating and drinking, and dancing, because of all the great spoil that they had taken out of the land of the Philistines, and out of the land of Judah.
II Samuel 6:14 -- And David danced before the LORD with all his might;
and David was girded with a linen ephod.
II Samuel 6:16 -- And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal
SaulÕs daughter looked through a window, and saw king David
leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her
heart.
I Chronicles 15:29 -- 15:29 And it came to pass, as the ark of the covenant of the LORD came to the city of David, that Michal, the daughter of Saul looking out at a window saw king David dancing and playing: and she despised him in her heart.
Job 21:11 -- They send forth their little ones like a flock, and their children dance.
Psalm 30:11 -- Thou hast turned for me my mourning into dancing:
thou hast put off my sackcloth, and girded me with gladness;
Psalm 149:3 -- Let them praise His name in the dance: let them sing praises unto Him with the timbrel and harp.
Psalm 150:4 -- Praise Him with the timbrel and dance: praise Him with stringed instruments and organs.
Ecclesiastes 3:4 -- A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
Isaiah 13:21 -- But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.
Jeremiah 31:4 -- Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.
Jeremiah 31:13 -- Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together:
for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow.
Lamentations 5:15 -- The joy of our heart is ceased; our dance is turned into mourning.
Matthew 11:17 -- And saying, "We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented."
Matthew 14:6 -- But when Herod’s birthday was kept, the daughter of Herodias danced before them, and pleased Herod.
Mark 6:22 -- And when the daughter of the said Herodias came in, and danced,
and pleased Herod and them that sat with him, the king said unto the damsel,
"Ask of me whatsoever thou wilt, and I will give it thee"
Luke 7:32 -- They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, "We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept."
Luke 15:25 -- 15:25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came
and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.